Seriously.
He’s a misogynist. Contrast his approach with Christ’s; the scriptures abound with stories of Christ’s interactions with women. Paul told us to sit down and shut up.
He argues against senior Apostles and tries to claim more authority than them. Instead of working with them to unite the church he further splinters things with his claim that even the so-called “super apostles” cannot contradict him. (Gal 1:8: the term was changed to “angels” in later scripts, as I understand the situation.)
According to the Catholic priest down the street, Paul is a source of Trinitarian creed.
Can anyone out there in the Bloggernacle give me even one good reason not to dismiss Paul as an interloper and the beginning of the rot we call the Apostasy?
June 6, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Well, our leaders quote him an awful lot (or people writing under his name, depending on who you ask). There are other reasons, of course, but this one seems the most pertinent to you.
June 6, 2007 at 9:48 pm
I’ve had similar thoughts. However, 1 Corinthians 15 is clearly inspired doctrine. Also, there’s that whole incident on the road to Damascus.
June 6, 2007 at 11:00 pm
HP: Actually, that’s not good enough for me. I love and respect our leaders but just because they quote him doesn’t necessarily mean anything. Paul does have some worthwhile things to say. I really like what he has to say about charity. But given how much else of his writings seem to be hogwash, I don’t understand why his letters are considered scripture.
John: There is the incident on the road to Damascus. He was told to stop persecuting the church; he was not, as I recall (and I could be wrong) given any sort of authority. I don’t question the sincerity of his conversion; I do question the weight given to his opinions.
June 6, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Interesting enough, Joseph Smith found the scripture you are pointing at about women not speaking in church as mistaken interpretation. Now, I know this isn’t exactly the uber-feminist position, but the JST changed “talk” to “rule” in the Church.
To be honest, I am not the greatest fan of Paul at time either. It would be great to have more of the original apostle’s words. However, I am learning to appriciate the insights he had about the gospel. Remember, Paul was the “Apostle of the Gentiles,” and that happens to be the group that put together the Scriptures of the New Testament.
June 6, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Heh……. I have recently made a few podcasts on Paul and this subject of his arguing and being enemies to the Jerusalem Church and James, the brother of Jesus. It’s an incredibly interesting subject.
Best,
Kerry
June 7, 2007 at 5:40 am
Kerry
I would love to listen – what is the link?
June 7, 2007 at 6:11 am
pdoe: Actually, I think the misogyny claims are overblown; the stuff in Corinthians, in context, is talking about speaking in tongues. The rest is in Timothy, which is in all probability not a Pauline text. And that’s really it. Further, he frequently references women such as Prisca being leaders in the church, and seems to have no problem with it. So there’s something going on here that simple misogyny is too simple an example for.
We owe a huge amount of our understanding of the doctrine of grace to Paul. The Epistle to the Romans is the seminal text here. He is simply beautiful on faith sometimes – 1 Corinthians 2 is a favorite of mine.
Paul is also, it seems to me, incredibly good about specifying what he says is actually inspired and what is not; for example, he states that his views on marriage are merely his own opinion. However, he also frequently claims direct revelation – for instance, as John references, in 1 Corinthians 15. That’s merely one example; reading the Epistles reveals dozens of “As the Lord has made known unto me”s and so forth.
Finally, as to the conflict described in Galatians – Paul was right, and Peter eventually realized it it. He was arguing in favor of converting Gentiles directly to Christianity; Peter opposed this. Later, however, Peter himself received a vision confirming Paul’s position. See Acts 10. I’m also not convinced that the authority structure we recognize today existed in the same way in the early church.
Unfortunately, Paul has been the victim of absolute butchery at the hands of the King James translators. I recommend another translation to really get what he’s saying.
June 7, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Paul’s one of my favorite writers. I think I’d place him after John.
June 7, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Jettboy and Kerry: Thank you for your input too. Kerry, I’ll have to look up that podcast. (In my copious spare time, of course.
)
Matt: do you have a preferred translation? Thank you what you shared; it’s what I was looking for, or at least the beginning of it. I really do want to understand Paul and his relevance.
Susan: why is he one of your favorites? What of his writings resonate with you?
June 8, 2007 at 12:51 am
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution,
or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors
through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded,
that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities,
nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God,
which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:35-39
–
And be not conformed to this world:
but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,
that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Romans 12: 2
That one’s a particular favorite. God’s will is good, it’s acceptable—in fact, it’s perfect. “Transformed by the renewing of your mind”—what an awesome way to put it.
–
He also has written sections that I call “How to Live passages”—like this one below. But see also Colossians 3: 12-25.
Let love be without dissimulation.
Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
in honour preferring one another;
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Be of the same mind one toward another.
Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate.
Be not wise in your own conceits.
Recompense to no man evil for evil.
Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath:
for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him;
if he thirst, give him drink:
for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:9-21
–
Not that I speak in respect of want:
for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am,
therewith to be content.
I know both how to be abased,
and I know how to abound:
every where and in all things I am instructed
both to be full and to be hungry,
both to abound and to suffer need.
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Philippians 4: 9-11—one of my favorites of all time. I blogged about it here:
http://www.nine-moons.com/2007/03/08/both-how-to-abound-and-how-to-be-abased
–
Rejoice evermore.
Pray without ceasing.
In every thing give thanks:
for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1 Thessalonians 5:16-21
–
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7
–
And who doesn’t love 1 Cor 13? Pure poetry.
June 8, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Hi, pdoe. I’m hardly an expert on the Bible, but I use the Oxford Annotated Bible myself – the New Revised Standard translation. It’s also got useful apparatus – critical essays, footnotes, etc. The cover shot in the link is inaccurate, by the way.
http://www.amazon.com/Annotated-Revised-Standard-Version-Hardcover/dp/019528481X/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_txt/104-8097376-2855107
June 12, 2007 at 3:56 am
Paul is the Bruce R. McConkie of the early church.
June 12, 2007 at 3:59 pm
What do you mean by that, Gilgamesh? I don’t know much about Bruce R. McConkie.
June 12, 2007 at 6:23 pm
When I think of both Paul and Bruce R. McConkie, I think of outspoken apostles that were very opinionated. Both had their run-in’s with their leadership (Paul with Peter over sitting with Gentiles, and Elder McConkie with David O McKay over Mormon Doctrine). Both were adopted by the general church population (though not the leadership) as the authoritative voice of doctrine. Both defined the Savior for their generation. Nowadays both cause the more moderate wing of the church to cringe. The biggest difference now is that Paul had a more lasting effect, since his writings have been canonized. Elder McConkie’s losing prominance except in CES manuals.
June 17, 2007 at 7:02 pm
Reliable rumor has it that Elder Mcconkie won’t be nearly so prominent in the next round of CES manuals.
June 17, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Thank goodness.
August 1, 2007 at 4:02 am
The bloggernacle has yet to cease to amaze me, and this post title is just one more instance of mind-boggling hyperbole. What is Paul good for? I think nearly everyone in the above comments has shown that most, if not all, of Paul’s writings serve to enlarge the soul, increase faith in our Saviour, and aid the earnest disciple of Christ. If for nothing else, his writings serve as a dependable conduit to the soothing whisperings of the Comforter, our ever willing Friend and Guide. While we cannot have the Saviour with us in our hearts, He has provided that Spirit to remind us of His teachings and Example. Paul’s writings have helped me tremendously in my own personal quest to feel of Jesus’ love, mercy, and forgiveness. I am sure that sans Paul, I would not know of Jesus’ influence and love in my life to the extent that I do. I think that if you sincerely seek after the Saviour while exploring Paul’s letters, you too could be similarly touched. As Jesus has promised, seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened unto you. While there is no doubt in my mind that I could more heartily pursue the Celestial Kingdom, I do find that by believing I can benefit from a given activity, I will benefit, however minimally. Perhaps that is the missing piece to your puzzle of Paul’s relevancy.
August 1, 2007 at 10:23 pm
FishHead, I’m sorry you think the title of this post was hyperbole. It was not. I was honestly ready to chuck Paul out of the scriptures. I’m glad his writings touch your heard and help you to feel Jesus’ influence and love. To date, most of my readings of Paul have only filled me with a desire to give him an Atomic Wedgie. Hence my appeal to the people of the bloggernacle.
Maybe for my next scripture reading project I’ll borrow my husband’s copy of the NSRV and see if I don’t like that better.
August 2, 2007 at 5:59 am
If it wasn’t hyperbole, then I apologize. But I don’t see how anyone could literally believe that Paul’s writings are 100% good for nothing. Your title seems like a classic use of exaggeration to draw readers in and make a point, while ultimately taking a position that does not reach as far as the original statement. IMHO, that is what you’ve done here. Good luck with the NSRV; please let us know how it turns out for you.
August 8, 2007 at 6:37 pm
I tried to respond to your concerns and you came back and insulted me. That is one of the most condescending posts I have seen. I don’t know what makes you think I need help with English and I resent it.
To be clear, if your statement had read simply “If it wasn’t hyperbole, then I apologize,” I would not have been offended. Including the link — as if that definition is the only one you would accept and as if I were unaware of the meaning of the word — is what seems arrogant and condescending.
As for this: “Your title seems like a classic use of exaggeration to draw readers in and make a point…”
“Drawing readers in” and “making a point” is pretty much the purpose of most titles, yes.
I still think Paul’s writings belong with the Apocrypha. “There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;
there are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.”
December 17, 2007 at 6:52 pm
All scripture is inspired of God. One writer cannot be discarded because some of what he writes clashes with your personal views.
Far from being a misogynist, Paul worked with women (Acts 18:2,3), commended women who were working hard spiritually (Romans 16:12, 2 Tim 1:5), commanded the treating of them with respect (1 Tim 5:1,2), and gave his opinion that women may often may better off on their own rather than under a husband’s headship (1 Cor 7:40)
Paul merely pointed out, during the time of the Christian congregation being organised for the first time, how God’s standards of headship which had been shown all through Bible history (while women could have authority as prophet’s, informing people of things, only men ever exercised headship as leaders among God’s people – even Esther, a queen, submitted to the direction of her uncle and adoptive father Mordecai) was to be applied in the Christian congregation.
February 1, 2008 at 10:29 pm
“All scripture is inspired of God.”
Yes but how do you decide what is and isn’t scripture? The Bible didn’t exist as we recognize it until sometime in the fourth century A.D.
“One writer cannot be discarded because some of what he writes clashes with your personal views.”
True and yet not true: see Bruce R. McConkie. I keep having Paul explained to me by people who would know (like the fellow in my ward who is a New Testament scholar) and yet his more bone-headed comments keep undermining my trust in the rest of what he has to say.
Hrm. I guess people who love Paul have no business complaining about Brigham Young. Heh.